Curse

Elnino · Mar 13, 2012, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Btw Elnino AFAIK Illusion Mesmers can't kill carriers as effectively as Dom mesmers because they can be outhealed by a RoJ - however, the area they are superior is when a real Monk is defending the carrier, when they can keep the carrier snared and so delay the carrier anyway, while the Dom Mes is powerless. It's still arguable though that a Water Ele is better for that situation, but Water snares did take some fairly big nerfs over the past couple of years (increased recharge + energy on Winter's Embrace + Freezing Gust), and the fact that carriers have a fair amount of armour.

Well, it depends on what skills you bring on your bar. I find inspired/revealed enchantment to be quite effective against the roj monk's restful breeze. Even if the carrier doesn't die, it doesn't matter because you would have slowed it down severely and also lured the monk away from the shrine leaving it vulnerable. Just like what you've said about the dedicated healer.

Water eles are strong. I'm actually trying to come up with a build for them in JQ. Only problem is that they lack a good heal like Ether Feast.

DRGN · Mar 13, 2012, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

Well, it depends on what skills you bring on your bar. I find inspired/revealed enchantment to be quite effective against the roj monk's restful breeze. Even if the carrier doesn't die, it doesn't matter because you would have slowed it down severely and also lured the monk away from the shrine leaving it vulnerable. Just like what you've said about the dedicated healer.

Water eles are strong. I'm actually trying to come up with a build for them in JQ. Only problem is that they lack a good heal like Ether Feast.

I've run Shatterstone/Glowing Ice/Shard Storm/Maelstrom(for shrines or if you're super brave and time maelstrom to hit RoJ on lemmings)/Ice Spikes/Armor of Mist/Aura of Restoration/Water Attunement with a lot of success. You're not going to be capping a lot of Ranger shrines, but you can cap quarries pretty easily. The main thing is the huge snaring ability you have on multiple targets and still dishing out respectable damage on carriers(although you're not going to kill a healed one, you can really slow it down). A minor bonus is you almost always get the initial cap on yellow with Armor of Mist's long duration.

Anyway I suppose this is a minor derailment but it's a good break from the dissertations on the last page.

Jeydra · Mar 13, 2012, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Ele self-heal is considerably stronger than Mesmer self-heal @_@ Also in all fairness you have to agree that actually killing the carrier > delaying it, i.e. the real difference between Water Ele and Dom Mes only comes into play against real Monks (and as it happens, when killing other players matters).

This was my favourite Water build in JQ for quite a while:

Quote:

When Illusion of Pain was 1s cast, the same build worked exceedingly well with IoP instead of Conjure Nightmare. Relative to the Dom Mes this build aims to stay on the field for much longer.

Because Dom Mes is so versatile, a worthy option is to load up on the Wastrel's skills and then bring some snares. This was my favourite JQ build until I tried running purely defensive Monk last weekend:

Quote:

The self-healing is a lot less reliable, which means you can't camp the carrier lines for very long if the other team doesn't let you. One snare is also considerably weaker than the Water Ele. In return the capping potential is quite strong, allowing you to play cap when you need it, and you punch through RoJ Monks easily (+ you can run through Archer shrines without eating a long Cripple, you just lose half your health doing it). It's certainly possible to optimize this build even more for pure carrier hunting at the expense of capping power.

After I tried running pure heal, this became my favourite JQ bar:

Quote:

Triggers the flux. The build can hold a shrine vs. all the meta builds easily, often 2v1 and sometimes even 3v1. The big drawback is of course it can't cap at all. Lack of speedboost is a problem as well, but it tends not to be very mobile (just camp purple / green) so it's not that critical.

In all cases these bars have serious drawbacks, hence I don't find any overpowered. It might surprise some to say that my win % is highest with the pure healer, but that's just the way it is.

Swingline · Mar 14, 2012, 01:52 AM // 01:52

The way I see it is the build has become so common place through its effectiveness that people start to complain. From my experience with a Mesmer in JQ I have learned its PI who is the real culprit, without it shrine capping would become very difficult.

Your also missing that its difficult to cap ranger shrines with WW/WD. Sometimes I can do it but when my ping gets to high its impossible to do with the Rangers constantly spamming Sundering Shot and Bestial Fury. Its even difficult to do with chaos storm unless you echo it but that takes a lot of energy and skill slots out of the original meta build.

I don't think the problem is the skills themselves but that the different PvP formats call for certain skills because of the situations that arise in them(Carries don't use their one skill unless something is blocking them and this gives power to WW/WD). This is why so many skills go unused and are considered crap.

When you start changing skills because they shine in a certain format your going to either make the skills useless across the board or create problems elsewhere. The best solution is to tweak the formats and in this case spread out the shrine NPCs so they don't get nuked in 6 seconds. This would slow down the PI build without making it useless.

Mercury Angel · Mar 14, 2012, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Maybe:

Mighty Roar - 4 recharge
Shout
The creature unleashes its anger at being attacked in a primal roar. (This skill has no effect.)

Added to the Hauler and Carrier. Causes the last packet of Wastrel's Demise to be wasted, and reduces the rate at which they can be Worried to once every 4 seconds at most. Chuck in a neat and loud sound effect, and call it a flavor addition.

Edit: Actually, should probably be a maximum of 3 Wastrel's Demise packets and 1 Wastrel's Worry packet with the best timing, due to reaction time, cast time, and aftercast.

DiogoSilva · Mar 14, 2012, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

Maybe:

Mighty Roar - 4 recharge
Shout
The creature unleashes its anger at being attacked in a primal roar. (This skill has no effect.)

Added to the Hauler and Carrier. Causes the last packet of Wastrel's Demise to be wasted, and reduces the rate at which they can be Worried to once every 4 seconds at most. Chuck in a neat and loud sound effect, and call it a flavor addition.

Edit: Actually, should probably be a maximum of 3 Wastrel's Demise packets and 1 Wastrel's Worry packet with the best timing, due to reaction time, cast time, and aftercast.

I like that idea. Mesmers would still be effective at killing carriers, but at least they would require a bit more skill to do so, and should you fight them, you could have a chance to kill them before they kill your carrier.